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SkyTitan wrote:

I realized my idea is essentially making the max number of equipable launchers equal to the max number of controlable missiles. More control would equal more firerate... =\
Still cuts spam though.

That doesn't solve missile spam. That just leads to missile spam kiting. (and a hoard of other problems)

What problems? I see no problems. Please point out any problems. If i dont know there are problems, i can't fix them!

-Why should missile lifetimes be nerfed? Just because people don't use that extra time doesn't mean that they should be stopped from coming up with a strategy that involves it.

Because, like you said, at 4 minutes per missile the number of missiles out at a time could get far too high.

-Why should they need an arming time? I'm not saying that there can't be energy missiles that charge, I'm saying that explosives with a rocket attached shouldn't need to power up. Seriously, charge it in the fricken launch bay. That's what someone would do in real life with all the safety systems.

They need an arming time to prevent from spamming them on top of your ship where the primary weakness of the missiles is not present; Namely, that they can be blown up. They are MISSILES. If you want to sit on your enemy and kill them, then use a licin or something, close range spam invalidates everything that a missile is supposed to be.

-Why unlimit the number of missiles? Leads to long range spam. Makes missiles broken at long range as well as short range.

Why can people shoot as many bullets as they want right now? Oh, right, because it makes sense. Uncapping missiles wont cause long range spam any more than magcannons do for snipers...plus, you can blow up missiles!

-Having to push an enemy off you is a terrible idea. In a sense, the gunners loose half their missile damage per second just because someone is sitting on them. If missiles can't be dodged by slow players, they would just come closer to the gunner so they don't have to deal with the missiles.

The idea being that with the knockback, they CANNOT stay on top of the gunner. Too much knockback, you see. Sure, if you can stay on top of them they lose DPS, but isn't that the same as with torps? If they can do it when it's so difficult to do so, then why not? At the same time, there's no reason they COULDN'T launch their high DPS missiles at them, they would just have to wait for 1-2 seconds for them to arm before they can blow up. Simple.

-How would this improve gunners other than long range spam? Heck, reduce the lifetime on a missile and having it use some of that to charge? There is a VERY good reason they wouldn't be able to use them at "multiple K's away" (several k out)

Well, if you're not going to give anything better than "There is a very good reason," you can hardly expect me to find a reason why it would work, can you?

-What the heck with near immune missiles at max bank? Point defence weapons wouldn't be used anymore than they are now. A speed demon would simply get a magcannon, shoot the missile, and let the missile interception squad go to work. Just need a quick one shot on the missile to open it up. Anymore than one shot doesn't work either as point defences would never be able to scratch them.

The reason is so that missiles will not be destroyed a LOT by flying bullets, chain lasers in ubers like pos, tsunamis, or any number of other environmental effects that might invalidate the use of missiles. As for point defenses, you might be surprised; as a sniper, if i could kill a missile with a few quick shots from a PD, or with two torpedoes using 5-10k of elec, I personally would use the PD just because of the elec efficiency it provides. I'm fairly sure a lot of other people would, as well.

Of course, for a SD ALL weapons fire quickly, but then again, it's not like you shoot at SD's with missiles very often, is it?

-Splash lasers only do so much, have so much range, and jumping ones only have so many jumps. Considering that's what splash actually is...

Pos splash lasers shoot just about everything, with a significant amount of damage. Certainly enough to kill missiles. /argument

-Long range missile spam would of course help gunners against anyone that fights from a distance. That is, if the missiles could reach that range.

Another thing you have to remember is that missiles can't be fired at targets more than 2k away, anyway. Also, it wouldn't be spam, it would be shooting normally instead of being restricted...and the longer range it is, the more likely it is that the missiles get destroyed. With the combination of an arming time and the chance of missiles being destroyed the longer they fly, people would be encouraged to fight at a middling distance...like many other classes! Seems to me like that makes for a problem solved.

Author:	Demiser of D [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
I think that each launcher should have a standard recoil for each missile, say, two seconds, and the limits on missiles should be removed so you can launch as many as you want at once. Then there would be less reason to spam them; at the very least you could get the same DPS minus missiles lost at any range. Missiles should also have an "arming time", sorta like thoraxes except they just wait for that amount of time before they can blow up at all. That way it's encouraged to be at least a little bit further away from the target, and once you're a little bit away it doesn't matter what range you're at. Y'know?

Author:	shawn_mccall [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
I typically never lose a missile if I want it to hit. Just move back and forth in little arcs while kiting from 1k+ away and the projectiles will always miss ftw. Infinite missiles out would be interesting though. Especially coupled with arming time, but I could see people running up on Gunners just to kill Missile DPS, so I would prefer something like TotalDamage = WarheadDamage x Time. That way you could spam but it would be aat the cost of 1/2 - 2/3 of your potential missile DPS, and it would give incentive to others not to try to sit on you to stop your missiles.

Author:	Demiser of D [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
shawn_mccall wrote: I typically never lose a missile if I want it to hit. Just move back and forth in little arcs while kiting from 1k+ away and the projectiles will always miss ftw. Infinite missiles out would be interesting though. Especially coupled with arming time, but I could see people running up on Gunners just to kill Missile DPS, so I would prefer something like TotalDamage = WarheadDamage x Time. That way you could spam but it would be aat the cost of 1/2 - 2/3 of your potential missile DPS, and it would give incentive to others not to try to sit on you to stop your missiles. Awesome idea, that makes it perfect. Of course, people would probably still sit on them, but you could have cool ways to compensate for that...concussion missiles, perhaps; blow them off you and then open op on them while they're still spinning. Would make being on top of you be the last thing they want to do.

Author:	SkyTitan [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
Ick, formulas. Missiles just for concussion, heh, Sol might be fun if those don't cost all that much. Sitting in place? Screw that! You're going to be in deepspace when you come back from being afk! Ha! -Charge time for missiles, I don't like it. Maybe SOME missiles can have that but as far as I know, missiles are generally charged/assembled before being mounted anything. Pulse engine piercing missiles for the win. -Infinite missiles, uh oh. Last for 4 minutes on a gunner, right? +Can still spam them = fun use of SDs. If you don't see where I'm going with long lasting missiles and a class that can dodge... (you'll never know) -I don't like formula based damage involving time from launch, Juxes, maybe. Same thing with my opinions on missile charging ---- So, current issues being: 1. Missiles spamable 2. Inbuilt launchers sometimes bad thing We must solve these through debate immediately! Step One: Indentify sources of problems #1 Fire rate can be dropped very low with multiple launchers. When the missile hits another can immediately be launched. #2 Shawn, this is yours. You're the gunner here. Give us a detailed comparison between the standard and inbuilt ones.

Author:	shawn_mccall [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
Inbuilt can't be stacked, meaning you can't spam. So to fix it you really need to either rebalance all launcher or kill spamming. Or, just a thought(that could be really run), make the crappier inbuilt launchers(like the one on the BS) give epic bonuses to missiles launched off of it. So you would wouldn't be able to spam from it, but you might give the missile 3x the shields and 4x the DPS along with double the speed.

Star Sonata http://forum.starsonata.com/

Gunner http://forum.starsonata.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47172	Page 5 of 9

Author:	SkyTitan [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
shawn_mccall wrote: Inbuilt can't be stacked, meaning you can't spam. So to fix it you really need to either rebalance all launcher or kill spamming. So it all comes down to missiles can be spammed. -MaxNumber of launchers = maxnum of controllable missiles -Sepperate launcher cool down -No more launch speed decrease Would this help the spam problem any? I'm going to use Demiser of D 's calculations here to see if I can answere my own question. ---- Broadsword Class Launcher Mark IV (x5) Large Armor Piercing Missile Max Launchers under new system: 3 5k*3 every .8 seconds 15k damage at range of 60 (that's how far they before you can fire again) 18.75k damage a second at 60 range destruction makes this 22.5k per second Vs. 31.5k and 37.8k under original spam At range, effective damage is the same as the old damage. So... missile spam damage effectiveness would be reduced. shawn_mccall wrote: Or, just a thought(that could be really run), make the crappier inbuilt launchers(like the one on the BS) give epic bonuses to missiles launched off of it. So you would wouldn't be able to spam from it, but you might give the missile 3x the shields and 4x the DPS along with double the speed. I'd love specialized launchers. Inbuilt ones makes things all the more fun. Combine my idea with your idea there and the thing about destruction and this would be fine?

Author:	Demiser of D [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
Honestly, missiles dont NEED even two minute lifespans. Sixty seconds gets a missile 7500 distance, if it needs to go further than that you're doing something wrong. So here's what I'd do; Cut missile lifespan in half, and uncap the number of missiles out at once. Give the majority of missiles an arming time; they will need to be out for between one and two seconds before they explode. Create a new line of close range defense missiles that have decent knockback on their target, decent damage, but probably only about half as much as normal missiles. Idea being to get the enemy off of you and then use normal missiles. This encourages a more tactical approach. The result, hopefully, is a gunner that now can fight, and is actually encouraged to fight, at a slightly larger distance. Assuming they fire their missiles correctly, there should be no reason their missiles will not be able to reach a target even multiple K's away. A caveat to this, however; there are places, notable with splash lasers, that will make the use of missiles at range quite useless. Something should be made to avoid this problem. I'm thinking of an item that only runs when the bank is at 100% that gives a missile something like 99% resistance to damage. This would make point defense weapons useful, as well; they would be able to destroy a missile the best, because they can keep a constant barrage of bullets on it. This would make gunners far more effective versus snipers, of course, but i think that's just fine.

Author:	SkyTitan [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
I realized my idea is essentially making the max number of equipable launchers equal to the max number of controlable missiles. More control would equal more firerate... =\ Still cuts spam though. Demiser of D wrote: Honestly, missiles dont NEED even two minute lifespans. Sixty seconds gets a missile 7500 distance, if it needs to go further than that you're doing something wrong. So here's what I'd do; Cut missile lifespan in half, and uncap the number of missiles out at once. Give the majority of missiles an arming time; they will need to be out for between one and two seconds before they explode. Create a new line of close range defense missiles that have decent knockback on their target, decent damage, but probably only about half as much as normal missiles. Idea being to get the enemy off of you and then use normal missiles. This encourages a more tactical approach. The result, hopefully, is a gunner that now can fight, and is actually encouraged to fight, at a slightly larger distance. Assuming they fire their missiles correctly, there should be no reason their missiles will not be able to reach a target even multiple K's away. A caveat to this, however; there are places, notable with splash lasers, that will make the use of missiles at range quite useless. Something should be made to avoid this problem. I'm thinking of an item that only runs when the bank is at 100% that gives a missile something like 99% resistance to damage. This would make point defense weapons useful, as well; they would be able to destroy a missile the best, because they can keep a constant barrage of bullets on it. This would make gunners far more effective versus snipers, of course, but i think that's just fine. That doesn't solve missile spam. That just leads to missile spam kiting. (and a hoard of other problems) -Why should missile lifetimes be nerfed? Just because people don't use that extra time doesn't mean that they should be stopped from coming up with a strategy that involves it. -Why should they need an arming time? I'm not saying that there can't be energy missiles that charge, I'm saying that explosives with a rocket attached shouldn't need to power up. Seriously, charge it in the fricken launch bay. That's what someone would do in real life with all the safety systems. -Why unlimit the number of missiles? Leads to long range spam. Makes missiles broken at long range as well as short range. -Having to push an enemy off you is a terrible idea. In a sense, the gunners loose half their missile damage per second just because someone is sitting on them. If missiles can't be dodged by slow players, they would just come closer to the gunner so they don't have to deal with the missiles. -How would this improve gunners other than long range spam? Heck, reduce the lifetime on a missile and having it use some of that to charge? There is a VERY good reason they wouldn't be able to use them at "multiple K's away" (several k out) -What the heck with near immune missiles at max bank? Point defence weapons wouldn't be used anymore than they are now. A speed demon would simply get a magcannon, shoot the missile, and let the missile interception squad go to work. Just need a quick one shot on the missile to open it up. Anymore than one shot doesn't work either as point defences would never be able to scratch them. -Splash lasers only do so much, have so much range, and jumping ones only have so many jumps. Considering that's what splash actually is... -Long range missile spam would of course help gunners against anyone that fights from a distance. That is, if the missiles could reach that range.

Author:	shawn_mccall [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
It's not possible to spam from a distance unless you circle which means you're in an HF that will have a lower launch rate anyway, and even then an enemy with high rof and non-ethereals will still mow down half your DPS, if it's a player I can assure you not a single missile will come through if they don't want it to. I hate the idea of stacking launchers continuing though. I just want to see them have their RoF divided by 3 and let them be 1 per ship. Then up Destruction a bit, and add more missile types.

Author:	Demiser of D [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
SkyTitan wrote: I realized my idea is essentially making the max number of equipable launchers equal to the max number of controlable missiles. More control would equal more firerate... =\ Still cuts spam though. That doesn't solve missile spam. That just leads to missile spam kiting. (and a hoard of other problems) What problems? I see no problems. Please point out any problems. If i dont know there are problems, i can't fix them! -Why should missile lifetimes be nerfed? Just because people don't use that extra time doesn't mean that they should be stopped from coming up with a strategy that involves it. Because, like you said, at 4 minutes per missile the number of missiles out at a time could get far too high. -Why should they need an arming time? I'm not saying that there can't be energy missiles that charge, I'm saying that explosives with a rocket attached shouldn't need to power up. Seriously, charge it in the fricken launch bay. That's what someone would do in real life with all the safety systems. They need an arming time to prevent from spamming them on top of your ship where the primary weakness of the missiles is not present; Namely, that they can be blown up. They are MISSILES. If you want to sit on your enemy and kill them, then use a licin or something, close range spam invalidates everything that a missile is supposed to be. -Why unlimit the number of missiles? Leads to long range spam. Makes missiles broken at long range as well as short range. Why can people shoot as many bullets as they want right now? Oh, right, because it makes sense. Uncapping missiles wont cause long range spam any more than magcannons do for snipers...plus, you can blow up missiles! -Having to push an enemy off you is a terrible idea. In a sense, the gunners loose half their missile damage per second just because someone is sitting on them. If missiles can't be dodged by slow players, they would just come closer to the gunner so they don't have to deal with the missiles. The idea being that with the knockback, they CANNOT stay on top of the gunner. Too much knockback, you see. Sure, if you can stay on top of them they lose DPS, but isn't that the same as with torps? If they can do it when it's so difficult to do so, then why not? At the same time, there's no reason they COULDN'T launch their high DPS missiles at them, they would just have to wait for 1-2 seconds for them to arm before they can blow up. Simple. -How would this improve gunners other than long range spam? Heck, reduce the lifetime on a missile and having it use some of that to charge? There is a VERY good reason they wouldn't be able to use them at "multiple K's away" (several k out) Well, if you're not going to give anything better than "There is a very good reason," you can hardly expect me to find a reason why it would work, can you? -What the heck with near immune missiles at max bank? Point defence weapons wouldn't be used anymore than they are now. A speed demon would simply get a magcannon, shoot the missile, and let the missile interception squad go to work. Just need a quick one shot on the missile to open it up. Anymore than one shot doesn't work either as point defences would never be able to scratch them. The reason is so that missiles will not be destroyed a LOT by flying bullets, chain lasers in ubers like pos, tsunamis, or any number of other environmental effects that might invalidate the use of missiles. As for point defenses, you might be surprised; as a sniper, if i could kill a missile with a few quick shots from a PD, or with two torpedoes using 5-10k of elec, I personally would use the PD just because of the elec efficiency it provides. I'm fairly sure a lot of other people would, as well. Of course, for a SD ALL weapons fire quickly, but then again, it's not like you shoot at SD's with missiles very often, is it? -Splash lasers only do so much, have so much range, and jumping ones only have so many jumps. Considering that's what splash actually is... Pos splash lasers shoot just about everything, with a significant amount of damage. Certainly enough to kill missiles. /argument -Long range missile spam would of course help gunners against anyone that fights from a distance. That is, if the missiles could reach that range. Another thing you have to remember is that missiles can't be fired at targets more than 2k away, anyway. Also, it wouldn't be spam, it would be shooting normally instead of being restricted...and the longer range it is, the more likely it is that the missiles get destroyed. With the combination of an arming time and the chance of missiles being destroyed the longer they fly, people would be encouraged to fight at a middling distance...like many other classes! Seems to me like that makes for a problem solved.

Author:	shawn_mccall [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
Missile lifetimes should be nerfed to 30-45 seconds. They are infuriating as they are now.

Author:	chewbacker [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
i like their timing...gives you a chance to maneuver the ai into the line of fire shawn_mccall wrote: Missile lifetimes should be nerfed to 30-45 seconds. They are infuriating as they are now.

Author:	ELITE [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
I like 20 second lifespan and unlimited missiles and unlimited launcher's equippable.

Author:	SkyTitan [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
ELITE wrote: I like 20 second lifespan and unlimited missiles and unlimited launcher's equippable. Damn it. I said no longer ranged missile spam. Lemon you post rampaging. Like, a lot.

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Author:	ELITE [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gunner
Just because you said something doesn't mean I can't like my own opinion. Cause I'm stuck up like that.